Dr. Tim Boals is one of the most important voices in multilingual education. He is the founder of WIDA, a preeminent educational organization supporting K-12 multilingual learners through research-based language development standards and professional resources. Dr. Boals holds a PhD in Curriculum from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, with an emphasis in the education of multilingual learners. At WIDA, Tim currently serves as senior principal investigator, helping multilingual education professionals and learners alike better understand the most crucial areas of focus.
Tim: Every content teacher is a teacher of language. Teachers need to see themselves as language educators. So it's always language through content. Tim: It all starts with one step on one day. Brandon: Hey everyone, hola a todos. I'm Brandon Cardet-Hernandez and you're listening to Leading Multilingual Learning, powered by Medley Learning. And each episode, we're going to be exploring the leadership, the ideas, and the insights shaping better education for our multilingual learners. And today, we are joined by one of the most important voices in multilingual education. Welcome to our guest, Tim Boles. He is the founder of WIDA and he currently serves as senior principal investigator. He holds a PhD in curriculum from the University of Wisconsin Madison with an emphasis in the education of multilingual learners. His background includes language education, education policy, and Spanish language and literature. And at WIDA, he does all the things, including making sure we know what is important for our kids to be focused on and what is important for our educators to be focused on. We could spend the entire podcast just talking about your accomplishments, but that won't get us to the heart of the conversation. Tim: Yeah, that would be too boring. Brandon: But I'm excited to welcome you and thank you, thank you, thank you for being with us today. Tim: Thank you, Brandon, y hola a todos. Yes, I'll join in with that. And it's wonderful to be here with you. Brandon: Thank you. Okay, so we always start off now with a question for folks, particularly like you who are incredibly accomplished. What's one thing that you have done in your professional life that just never makes it on the intro, but you think really matters. I want people to know about this. Tim: Oh yeah, okay, one thing that that I don't get a chance to talk about very much. I started out longer ago than I want to admit nowadays, but I started out working in migrant education, especially in the summertime. I spent a lot of time tutoring kids in migrant education camps in the state of Indiana. So a long time ago, but it was a very gratifying work. I actually used to have my guitar with me and we would sing songs in Spanish in the camps and I had a a trunk full of books in both Spanish and English and the kids would pull them out of my trunk and we'd sit under a tree in the hot sun in Indiana and work on literacy skills. You know, it was a very gratifying job. Brandon: I can imagine. And what brought you to it? You could do anything. Tim: Well, I was always interested in language and culture. My first degree was a master's in Spanish language and literature. So I got connected through some folks that I knew that were working at the Indiana Department of Education. That that job in migrant education actually led me to then work at the department full-time as their bilingual and English as a second language coordinator for the state, way back in the day when some some of your listeners will recognize Title VII. That was the... it later became Title III when No Child Left Behind came in in 2001. But yeah, that was sort of my introduction into the world of bilingual and ESL education. I actually had started out in world languages and was a Spanish teacher for for a number of years. So through those connections and through working with migrant students, I ended up in this job where I was really serving teachers and they of course were serving the students, which is very similar to what we do today at WIDA, you know. And that was really when I started recognizing the unmet needs that multilingual learner educators have. And I guess that was the beginning of me thinking, if ever I had an opportunity to do something more that would provide them with resources... I don't know that I necessarily thought about assessments at that particular moment, but it turns out that quality assessments are also very important. It's not the be-all and the end-all, but it's but it's certainly a piece of it along with resources and standards that teachers understand and how to use. So yeah, that was a a germ of an idea at that time and later on when I was in Wisconsin, that's when I got the opportunity to apply for the grant that started WIDA. Brandon: And we, the field is obviously much better for it, I would say as an educator and someone who thinks really deeply about our community. Tim: I believe we've made a difference and you know, that's that's honestly why why I get up in the morning. I think roughly 150 people who work at WIDA today, we're all motivated by this idea that our teachers need help, particularly teachers who are teaching multilingual learners, which by the way, is all teachers, really. It's not just ESL and bilingual teachers. It's really every teacher in almost every school now has multilingual learners. And so the idea that we can support them with better assessments, better standards that guide instruction is really something that we that we're proud of at WIDA. Brandon: And I talk about this a lot, right? It's really shifting the thinking from the the support for multilingual learners as an intervention and much more about core content and core instruction. Tim: Yeah, this idea we want the kids to be in all the core content classes, grade level instruction, and we want to help guide teachers to think about what's the scaffolding that those students need and how do we help them set up the kinds of interactive learning environments where language is best learned. Brandon: That's exactly it. And something I think about, we're thinking about often. Brandon: I do want to ask you for some of our educators who are listening, who may even be newer to the field, right, who are coming in at this time where there is a very, there's a defined body of research. There's expectations and assessments. There's a whole, a real respected educational support structure around how to do better by our kids. And in many ways, you and the WIDA team have helped define that. But how has that definition in your work evolved over time, how we think about English language development? Tim: Yeah, good question. I think what we've done at WIDA really is to take the research and translate it into tools and resources and assessments for teachers so that teachers can better see what the research is saying, right? From my early days of my career, I used to, I had the opportunity to go to conferences around the country and get to know the people who were big in the field. All of our ESL and bilingual teachers who've been in the business a while will know, will recognize names like Stephen Krashen and Jim Cummins and Ofelia García and folks that have absolutely changed the field. I was one of those guys who would walk up to them after their session and shake their hand and get to know them and sit down with them over coffee and learn more. And so those connections really helped us immensely when I started WIDA because I I now had friends to go back to. So as we built the resources that we that we have available on our website, which just has a lot of stuff out there now. And I know that sometimes teachers tell us it's it's a lot when they go to try to navigate it. We're we're working on making it more engaging and easier to get around, but there is a lot of stuff out there. And all of that started with me getting to know those folks. And then once I was able to start WIDA through the federal grant that came in in 2003, I could work with them more directly and as as we built a staff over the years. It was our work in translating that research, right, into practice. And and you're right about the evolving definition of academic language, right? It was 30 years ago, it was much more dichotomous in the sense that people talked about social English and they talked about academic English, right? Now we understand that it's more of a continuum. In fact, it's actually multiple continua. By that, I mean, if you go in a social studies class, that is its own language or discourse world, right? If you go in a math class or a science class, those are somewhat different discourse worlds. So what we're really hoping to show teachers is how to better address the language demands of those classrooms, of those specific classrooms, so that teachers see themselves... you know, every content teacher is a teacher of language. So teachers need to see themselves as language educators. And our language support teachers, the traditionally the bilingual and the ESL teachers, also are supporting that content growth. So it's always language through content. Brandon: And it's, you know, again, we sort of alluded to this earlier, and it's good for every kid. It's great for multilingual learners, of course, but it's good for every single kid when our teachers... Tim: Absolutely right. When we look, yeah, absolutely right. When we look at what classrooms, really, really good classrooms for multilingual learners look like, they're engaging spaces. Oftentimes, it's thematically based learning where kids are around a table. They're learning how to talk about a science experiment or talk about a particular moment in history. And yes, that's good for all kids. It's absolutely good for all kids. And some of the scaffolding that we provide, especially to to our multilingual learners at the more upper proficiency levels, are also important for other struggling learners that may not be able to get the full message through the traditional high school lecture. Brandon: That's exactly it. And I appreciate you continuing to bring in the the scaffolding as part of the way to bring the expressive and the receptive language alive in the classroom. Brandon: Where do you think we still fall short? You know, as we think about where WIDA is and what could be better. I was a teacher, I was a principal. There's no system that ever fully satisfies us and that's good because that will keep us doing better for our kids. Where do you think we're still falling short in terms of the frameworks and the and the supports offered? Tim: Well, at WIDA, we want to do a better job of reaching those content area teachers. That's our personal mission. We know that ESL and bilingual teachers come regularly to our website. How do we get science, social studies, and math teachers to see the value of the resources that we have there? That's that's something that we're working on right now and over the next three years. I think that's a charge that we have. I think in general, education is going through a rough patch right now. You know, I mean, we've traditionally been rather underfunded and teachers feel stretched very thin right now. So there isn't a lot of time in a teacher's day to really contemplate what changes need to take place, right? We really have to create the resources to be extremely easy to use and compelling, right? To connect with them in this period where definitely our schools are underfunded and our teachers are overtaxed. Brandon: It's an interesting problem of practice to think about our more traditional content teachers thinking about language supports in an embedded way, wanting to and using WIDA as a place to operationalize that. Yeah. Tim: It is. And I think this idea of seeing the value in it for every other kid in their class is certainly the hook that we would like to show them. You know, we don't want to just tell them that that's the way it is and have them take our word for it, but actually begin to show them through some of the resources that we're providing. Better video demonstrations is something we're working on right now, short video clips that really demonstrate these dynamic learning environments where kids, kids are doing a lot of the talking, not just answering yes or no to teachers at the that the teachers give them. Brandon: I appreciate that. And that modeling is so generous and kind for our educators because sometimes, I remember this too when I was in the classroom, you know, you're given something in print or now digitally where you're just supposed to be able to turnkey and deliver that type of learning to a kid. You know, there's a real and because teaching is sometimes such an isolated gig, right? You're in your classroom alone, just you. It's hard to see other practice, even if you're doing your instructional rounds, it's happening a few times a year, not every day. And I appreciate that that way of connecting back to to our teachers. Tim: We still have too many teachers that are doing pull out down the hall as the way in which ESL services get delivered. And I know that sometimes that's where schools start out and that's all that could be done. But to the extent possible, we also want to really encourage language support services to be more of an inclusive push in model, right? Because we do believe that that is a more effective way to align curriculum and make sure that kids are getting the kinds of support and instruction that they need. Brandon: I think about it and I talk about this a lot. I may have even, we may have even talked about this outside of of this conversation, but I think about belonging very deeply in terms of students being able to access the vulnerability that's necessary for them to take intellectual risk. And that happens when we keep our kids in the same space as their peers and then show them all the ways that they can participate and be part of it. That's bringing the supports inside. Tim: Well, and when you say the word belonging, it makes me think of how we approach students in terms of their own cultural and linguistic backgrounds, right? We really need to be building on those. And even if you're not a bilingual school, there's some very tangible things that teachers can do to honor students' native languages and cultures and make sure that they feel more comfortable with their own personal identities as they are learning and growing within their classrooms, right? Brandon: It's yes, deeply. Yeah, and it's it takes intentionality. You have to be purposeful. Brandon: I'm going to shift this the gears. We're going to go into a whole different domain, but one that I really want to talk about with you. And that's about our broader assessment and the compliance around that assessment. Sure. And you know, the debates over assessing and over assessing, we won't solve here today. But you know, there's our educators often feel this burden around testing cultures. When you think about the broader assessment cycles that multilingual learners are going through, where do you see it being used well and where do you see it falling into a compliance exercise? Tim: Wow, good question. You know, I mean, WIDA is and is certainly known as an assessment organization. We like to think our language assessments are diagnostic in nature in that they give teachers, you know, good quality information, but we also know that there are limits to what summative assessments can tell teachers, right? I mean, we have a a summative assessment, we also have an interim assessment. We're really working on creating easy-to-use models for classroom or formative assessment because I think the power in terms of teacher insight on a daily basis really lies with with those kinds of assessments that really connect well to the curriculum and to the lesson planning that teachers are doing and connects to their classroom, right? Now, is there too much assessment? I think everybody would say that in general, it feels like kids are being tested too much, right? And at WIDA, we're hoping that technology will drive down the testing time. Yeah. Um, we're looking forward to and working right now on those kinds of innovations that gets that time down because we agree that there's too much time outside the classroom, not just with the language tests, but of course with all the other testing that happens in in the school building. So it's important to have a balance and, you know, those the most powerful assessments are really the ones that teachers control and use within their classroom space. Brandon: And maybe I'll add one more thing and tell me if you disagree, but they're also the most powerful assessments are one where we intentionally interpret the data. Yeah. And then make decisions based off of it. Tim: Well, that's another issue, right? Is that traditionally, we've tested a lot, but we've not necessarily helped teachers understand what the data is telling them. And that's a commitment that we have at WIDA too. So it's not just a question of of testing, it's a question of how you use that information. Brandon: That's exactly it. What do you wish more educators understood about how to interpret the proficiency data? Tim: Well, the biggest thing for me, the biggest thing that I worry about is that English language proficiency testing data is sometimes used to justify not putting a a student in a particular class that's challenging. In other words, people are using English as a sort of prerequisite to getting access to content and that really worries me, Brandon. I want to see kids in challenging classrooms from almost the very beginning. I understand that when a kid walks in the door at level one, it's hard to get into some of those difficult content classes, but we have to get them into those classes ASAP because if we use scores to say, "Well, they're not quite ready for that difficult science class or math class yet," their peers are going to get in there, they're not, and they're going to fall behind, right? So I want to see them in those classes even when they're inching into intermediate proficiency levels. And then I want to see us provide the kinds of supports so that they can do well in those classes. Brandon: I feel you, hear you, see you, and I just want to double down on it. The thing that I also think a lot about, and you know this, is, yes, we use the data to sometimes limit access for our kids because we think and it's and here's the truth, it's always coming from a good place. Yes. That's the that's the radical part here. But at the same time, we use the data and then over scaffold for our kids, which slows them down. Tim: Right. Yeah, that's a very good point. I mean, we want the right amount of scaffolding and that's going to vary by proficiency level, right? The kids are going to need more at those beginning stages and little by little, we want to take it away. Yeah. and and let them let them go on their own and and watch them grow. Brandon: And that's the part where when we think about our kids are everywhere and they're in your content class, that idea of fading scaffolds and the types of supports our kids need in a particular place requires everyone to know the level of language learning in which a student has acquired. And that's where, you know, sometimes I, listen, I did this as a principal, the only people who knew my kids' proficiency data was my ESL educators. Tim: Right. That's that's another thing that we would identify as um, something we really need to work on. You're right. Those content area teachers need to know. I mean, at least at a basic level, beginner, intermediate, advanced with if possible, a little profile-based information about what are they struggling with? What do they need a little more guidance with, right? I mean, I've always said that that's an a key job that ESL and bilingual teachers bring to their school. It's not just the idea of them working with kids. If they can get some time to work with the teachers on behalf of the kids, right? If they're if if you're not yet included in the classroom itself, at least that opportunity to sit down with with the teachers and you're really advocating for the kids when you're doing this, you know, here, I've got a particular student that's at level three. Here are some of the characteristics of that. Here's some things you can do in your math or science class that will help bring them into the conversation, right? I mean, that's the the ESL and the bilingual teachers in the building are are often the the only folks that have that level of training around multilingual learner needs to be able to have that conversation with other teachers in the building. Brandon: And just to help folks on even the most general level, I like to, you know, think really practical here. You know, that beginning framework of like, here's your toolkit for your level ones, level twos, here's your toolkit, here's some instructional moves you can make. And we can get specific kid by kid, but sometimes I just need like a high-level overview of what's the moves I should be doing here? Tim: Yeah. Yeah, what are those instructional language moves? I think we've got some of those on our website, particularly in science and math that came out of a project that we did a few years ago that was a National Science Foundation funded project. So those are those are important tools that the ESL and bilingual teachers can also grab from our site and take with them to those meetings that they have with other teachers in their building. Brandon: And you know, that's what we're thinking about, what I'm thinking a lot about too is like just helping our content teachers, the places where our kids actually spend the most time and having the right supports at the right time. Brandon: I'm thinking about, and I want to just dive a little bit deeper here. And we have sort of two folks who might be listening. Those are the educators who are on the ground in the classroom and sometimes our, our multilingual learning directors or our ESL directors at a district level. How are you thinking and what suggestions do you have for ways that the system can support teachers in doing both at once, the teaching of content and the developing of language? What are things you want them thinking about in a in a really specific way? Tim: Well, you know, at an ideal level, if those ESL and bilingual directors have the have the ear of the building principals and and even the the superintendent, or in other words, the leaders in the district, they are trying to embed these issues into the general professional learning program for the district, right? Not as something that's an add-on later on. These are good instructional strategies for all kids anyway. You know, the next time you do your annual pre fall week where you get together with the teachers, can this be one of the key topics? How are we serving our multilingual learners? Let's review their needs. Let's review some ways we can scaffold. Let's review some ways we can make our classroom more language engaging. Maybe just show an example of a WIDA standard and a content standard on a screen and ask teachers, how did does this WIDA language standard help you think of ideas to scaffold instruction and make your learning more engaging within that content class, right? Because that's what those standards are meant to do. They're meant to be a companion piece to the content standards to give those ideas, right? So just having a whole school building look at that together, right? Or take part in one of our online trainings or just a a piece of it, right? Maybe not the whole thing, but just a piece or a video clip from our site that that kind of whole school approach to looking at our learners and their needs is I think what we need more of. Brandon: I love this idea of taking a standard in whatever state you're in or whatever the learning standard is that you're focused on and looking at the WIDA standard next to it and thinking about it not as another thing, but actually and I await a support, to you realizing this broader standard. It's a... Tim: Absolutely. Because language standards are meant to be used in that way, right? They're they're meant to work in tandem with the content standard. Brandon: And you can imagine for educators who are overwhelmed and you know, overburned by professional learning, sometimes it just feels like there's another standard I have to deal with. Tim: Right. Right. But hopefully a quick look at the parallel standard generates ideas for you and helps to make that lesson planning and you know, as curriculum directors are thinking about the themes for the year, the the the curriculum for the year that's going to be taught, to that's the time to pull out those those WIDA standards and really get some ideas that could actually make it easier for lesson planning to take place if teachers have those readily available in their hands. Brandon: Ay, theos. You know, the the hardest part about being a former school leader is it is a constant look in the mirror about what you didn't do. And it is much easier, you know, I wish I could tell you that I I wake up every morning and think all the things I did right. And I could spend some time doing that. It might be good for me. But I spend a lot of time thinking, oh, gosh, I wish I did this better. And for folks who are doing the work, you know, that is okay. And we're allowed to see where we could where we could grow. Tim: Yeah, you know, it all it all starts with one step on one day, right? I mean, there's so much going on in our schools. So when I make these suggestions, I don't I don't dream in my in my wildest imagination that teachers have the time to every day look and put the standard side by side. But simply doing it a few times a year could generate a lot of ideas about where to go and actually make that lesson planning simpler. Brandon: I feel that. I see that. and I can't wait to share that thinking more with the educators in my life and the the ones I come across. Brandon: We are slowly wrapping, but in the spirit of being in parallel process with everyone around us, you ask people all the time to take the journey of learning and growing and expanding so that we can better serve. I'm curious from you, what's something you're learning right now? What are you learning from or trying to do to to also grow? Tim: Well, good question. You know, way back when, even before that story I told about working with migrant students, I was um, a language major in college. I took modern languages and uh, you know, played around in addition to Spanish, which was my main second language. I took a couple of extra languages at that time, French and German, and, you know, kind of a big regret for me is I got busy with life and career and working on a PhD later on down the road and never got to come back to other languages. And uh, so now I am finally after all these years working on Italian and dabbling a little bit with Portuguese because I'm I'm going to be uh, spending a week in Portugal this summer. So I I just pulled out a podcast for that and uh, you know, I will I will be at a very basic level, obviously, at that time, but uh, but but the the Italian is coming along better. I've been working on that a few years now. So, so I'm always a language learner. Brandon: I love that. A big win for me. Brandon: That's a good one. And I'm sure, as you have shared about our kids, you know the most important step is finding those opportunities to speak and to listen. Tim: Absolutely. Amen. Makes all the difference. Brandon: I am so thankful that you joined me today. I'm very lucky and honored to be in your sphere and to have you in my world. Tim: Well, I feel lucky to know you, Brandon, and and I appreciate that you're doing some some pretty groundbreaking work right now, and I am personally looking forward to seeing more of that over the next couple of years. Brandon: Thank you so much. Before you go, if people want to learn more about WIDA, where should they go? Tim: Oh, well, we're pretty easy to find. Type WIDA at your Google prompt and I think you can easily get to our website. You know, we are located at the University of Wisconsin Madison. I always have to put a plug in that this year, the number one ranked School of Education in the country, we're proud of that. So you can find us easily. You can also find us at a personal level if you're if you're at the WIDA page, go to the staff page. I'm super easy to find and my email and number are out there on the website. I love hearing from people. So if anybody wants to send me an email or ask me a question, I'd love to hear from anybody that's listening to this right now. Brandon: Wonderful. Thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of Leading Multilingual Learning, and thanks, Tim, again for this great conversation. And we'll see you next time on Leading Multilingual Learning powered by Medley Learning.